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E15 Law Encoded w/ Andrew Stirling [transcript]

Updated: Apr 29


Andrew Stirling is the Head of Product Compliance at Tanda, the world’s #1 platform for rostering, attendance, labour insights and workforce success, and a local Brisbane technology success story.

Andrew has been in this role for 18 months, following him making the very bold decision to leave solid partnership prospects at a top tier law firm. We go wide with Andrew, with discussion including what prompted him to make this significant career pivot, the challenges and successes of his journey so far and the broad gap between the thinking of lawyers and software engineers and how he is successfully bridging that divide. We also dig deep into our respective views on what technology is doing and might do to the way law is practiced.


A great conversation. We hope you enjoy.


Find out more about Tanda at https://www.tanda.co/


This is an AI generated transcript. We find it to be reasonably accurate, and a helpful reference point, but it is not, nor is it intended to be, an exact transcription of this discussion.


Access the podcast:

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Apple Podcasts (audio): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-field-trip/id1454701554

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Overview

00:00 Open

01:43 Legal to non-legal career transition

06:59 Tanda and Andrew's product compliance role

14:50 From (employment) awards to code, and Tanda Paysure

18:04 Proactive legal services as a new market

22:24 Daily activities compared with private legal practice

26:40 From legal rules to algorithms

32:49 Transferability of legal skills

36:42 Learning new things

39:11 Rapid fire questions

42:03 Legal digital platforms

48:34 Value of information generated by legal process

56:31 Impact of tech on legal process

59:31 Future thinking - employment law

01:09:41 Andrew is obsessed with - great business books!


Alister Fitzgerald (00:01:24):

Andrew, you are the Head of Product Compliance at Tanda.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:01:26):

Welcome to The Field Trip.


Andrew Stirling (00:01:27):

Thanks for having me Alister. Pleasure.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:01:31):

Where does this podcast find you today?


Alister Fitzgerald (00:01:34):

I am sitting in my study at home


Alister Fitzgerald (00:01:38):

And, and home being? Just generally?


Andrew Stirling (00:01:39):

Yeah, in Brisbane.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:01:43):

It's interesting. I was thinking about that before, you know, pre pandemic. I would always go out and meet with people and we'd, we'd do something in person. So you're probably about a 20 minute drive away from where I am at the moment. And yet, you know, it's just the way we do it. Now. It's much easier to do this over a zoom call. So there it is. That's the, the way the world, the way the world is going. Can we start just, I mean the, the, the things that really interest me in, in you and what you've done, Andrew, and why I was keen to have a chat with you here is, is two fold one. You've got an interesting transition in career from being in a big law firm to, a different style of role.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:02:27):

And I think those kinds of transitions, particularly at a senior level, like you've done, are really interesting, and I'm keen to unpack that a little bit. And also the company you're working for, Tanda, which I'll let you explain is a technology company and there's an overlap with what it does and perhaps with what lawyers do or have done in the past. And again, I think that bit is interesting as well. So they're kind of the two themes of what I wanted to have a chat about today, but let's start just with the boring, perhaps perhaps not the right word. Can we start your bio? What's your background? How have you arrived professionally at where you are at today?


Andrew Stirling (00:03:04):

Well, professionally, I have a pretty simple story. I started at Allens as a graduate in 2007. I worked in Brisbane. I worked here for a few years, moved into state for a few years down to Melbourne. And in that time I've always worked as an employment and safety lawyer.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:03:31):

Can I just ask what, just to interject, what, what drew you to that practice area to start?


Andrew Stirling (00:03:37):

Good question. So when I was an undergrad applying for jobs, I thought you needed a more compelling answer to the question. You know, why do you want to work in commercial law than just, I don't know, don't like family law and I don't like criminal, which turns out to be the most stock standard answer, to be honest in those interviews, but, um,


Alister Fitzgerald (00:04:01):

Fairly binary choice at that early stage of how people could have the understanding of what it's like to practice in those areas to choose it. That's certainly what I did.


Andrew Stirling (00:04:11):

And, uh, but I'm very interested in politics. Um, maybe a little less so now than I was as a student and I did an economics degree and so I liked that tension in labor law between capital and labor that that interested me. And so I thought, well, I'm going to say something better than not just like commercial law. And I know I don't want to do the other stuff and I'll float that. And it just became a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy in a way. I never, unlike most people at Allens, I never rotated, just stayed in that, in that team. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Um, yeah, it was just a timing thing. I didn't really know what I wanted to do instead. And the time that I was about to rotate, one of the senior associates in the team went on parental leave. So I stayed and then it's one of those things like those cycles, they, they just, the graduate rotation cycles just happen year on year. And when, once you get out of whack of it, um, you know, you just, you stay where you are. And I was happy to do that.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:05:28):

That's interesting because certainly my story and a lot of stories I hear from, you know, from, from other people, when you dig into that question about where you started a lot of the time, it's just, I found a fit with people in a team and the firm that I was at, and that then I enjoyed the environment. So therefore I enjoyed the work that surrounded that environment. Um, that's, that's a far more well considered approach as a junior lawyer than I can talk to, that's for sure.


Andrew Stirling (00:05:58):

If I'd not liked the people, then it would have been a different story, but I had a very good mentor in Jamie Wells, and, really enjoyed working with John Norton as well. And, yeah, so the team, I mean, I loved that team. It was a good, interesting, integrated place to start.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:06:22):

Sorry, I broke your, your stride. You were down in Melbourne.


Andrew Stirling (00:06:27):

Moved to Melbourne and worked there for a few years, came back and for few more years at Allens before, I moved to Tanda.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:06:41):

So what is it that, I think, I don't think we need to go into the detail of what it's like to be an employment lawyer. I think people either listening to this will either know that or will be able to guess. But Tanda is interesting. What, what is it that you do at Tanda?


Andrew Stirling (00:06:59):

So at Tanda, I'm the Head of Product Compliance. So, Tanda itself is, it solves two business problems. One is paying people correctly, in particular under, um, the complexities of Australia's award system. And the second business problem is getting the right people in the right place at the right time. So rostering and attendance as a function, I guess. And so it's my, my responsibility to focus Tanda on solving those problems in a way that complies with Australian employment laws primarily.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:07:47):

And what is it? So just not to get too far ahead of ourselves, that transition that you made, I mentioned in the intro, you know, that's at a reasonably senior level, senior level, you were a managing associate at Allens, which is sort of the level below partner. You certainly had, a history and a reputation that whether it be there or elsewhere, you certainly had prospects to, you know, to, to take it further in the stream of working in a law firm. Why switch to a software company?


Andrew Stirling (00:08:22):

Uh, well, I mean, like all of those moves, there are, um, big pull factors, uh, in the case of Tanda, growing, growing business. I'd known the founders for a very long time before they founded the business


Alister Fitzgerald (00:08:41):

Socially, through work, or was it just a random?


Andrew Stirling (00:08:45):

Kind of, kind of both. They, when I, when I was working in, employment law, I kept an interest of sorts in student politics and ended up doing, doing some legal work for some of the student unions. And the founders of Tanda, at least two of them were, president and general secretary, I think the QUT Student Guild, and I did some work for them and that's how I got to know them. And then,we stayed in touch pretty regularly after that.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:09:23):

Interesting. So was it a random conversation that had them say, you know, actually we're kind of looking for someone in that, you know, for a role and the light bulb went off, did it, or did it work the other way? How did that come about?


Andrew Stirling (00:09:39):

Well, they were actually looking for, so they, Tanda had just acquired a business called Portner Press, which runs an employment law and health and safety law handbook. And they'd acquired that from an American company. And they were looking for someone within Tanda who understood the law, but who could, um, work on the management of that, um, uh, especially the transition, from, you know, all the, all the, post acquisition stuff, all that transition stuff,


Alister Fitzgerald (00:10:24):

So you were bedding down an acquisition effectively.


Andrew Stirling (00:10:27):

Yeah, effectively, and because I knew the content and, you know, in those early days there of ownership, of that, of that business, I think they thought financially, it wasn't going to be going as well as it actually was. And you know, there might've needed to be some bigger decisions than ultimately, we made around, how the content was managed and delivered, but, and hence the need for someone who knew what the content was. But, you know, as it's transpired, I think things are ticking along pretty well in that business. But so they got me on primarily to do that. And, you know, there was a whole team in Portner Press, so there was still, a good amount of my time that I could dedicate to other things. And part of what I was working on also at the same time was, at that time at least, was, selling Tanda in a different way.


Andrew Stirling (00:11:27):

So we set up a business called Tanda Paysure, which the idea behind that was to use Tanda's award engine, so algorithm and do back payment calculations. It was very big. It's not so much at the moment, but it'll come back all of the wage underpayment stuff. So, you know, part of the pull to Tanda was to do that. I just think that's a really fascinating thing that could be automated much more than it currently is. And so there were, there were pull factors into Tanda and, I've done a lot of reflecting, I think, but I now look back at my time at Allens as sort of more it's setting me up for success at Tanda. I loved a lot of about being a lawyer, but, the, I think the hours, were sort of inconsistent with what I wanted to be as a parent. You know, you had to make a lot of sacrifices and I just didn't want to keep making them to be honest. And you know, I'd also been a managing associate and, and, heading up the practice in Brisbane for about four years, by the time I left, I thought that was probably long enough to have given that a shake. Maybe if I'd stayed longer, you know, people say that I would have been a partner next time around, I thought, well, you know, I thought I'd...


Alister Fitzgerald (00:13:12):

Well you would have had those, you know, those options there. Or if not there, elsewhere as well. I mean, you're at that level on that and standard, so, like, I, I think it is an interesting story of, of why you made that transition and just reflecting on a point you made there about how you look at your time at Allens as setting you up for the next role. I think that's a really excellent way to think about ... like any, any work at any time that like at any step in your professional journey, and I must admit, I've always, I've always looked for a new challenge. I'm someone who likes to pick up new skills and it's less about like meeting a certain role or level of pay or anything like that. It's not promotion for promotion sake. It's just the ongoing challenge.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:13:58):

But each of, you know, even if I reflect on what I do now, it's, there are building blocks, blocks along the way that have enabled me to get here and perhaps in hindsight, looking back, it's not terribly surprising, I've ended up here. So I really liked, I liked the way you described that, because I think you can look at that as any, you know, whether you're in the same organization or you're moving organizations, it's everything you do at a particular time is always setting you up for whatever the next challenge might be. So nicely put. I just want to, I want to steer the conversation a bit from, just triggered by one of the comments that you made or prompted or triggered by one of the comments you made before about, the nature of the Tanda product. Would you describe Tanda as legal tech or would it be in that space?


Andrew Stirling (00:14:50):

Well, probably not as legal tech, reg tech, definitely. I don't know if you think there's a difference between legal tech and reg tech. I think there is. But, we decided to put a pin in the idea of Tanda Paysure in the middle of last year and, refocus, I guess, my energy on the core product and the core solution that we take to customers, which I think is a very sensible idea.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:15:28):

But in a way the Paysure was an extension of the, the engine, as you describe it with pointing the functionality you've built at another potential use case, you know, as, as sort of the market is showing interest or not in whatever you're looking at. Now, I mean, I asked that question, I think there's certainly a gray area between reg tech and legal tech. And, and to be honest, not a whole lot turns on it, but no, what I am interested in is, is where, and again, you touch on in an earlier comment. How much of what is done by the Tanda product is replacing work that employment lawyers either do now or would have done, and you've been doing it for long enough to, you know, to have seen any, any erosion of workflow on account of a product like this or similar.


Andrew Stirling (00:16:20):

Well, it it's, it's certainly taking away, what's, uh, what's a better way of putting it, um, once you've configured Tanda and in some respects, the configurations are already done for, for you, um, or, or can be done for you. You don't need to go back or we shouldn't need to go back to the well for, employment advice, um, on, uh, probably in, in two key things that I, I would say one is, uh, interpretation of awards. So we have a process internally to interpret, awards and then turn that into code. So if you're, if you plug into those into our awards, then, you know, you're not going back and asking your lawyers for advice on how the award should be interpreted.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:17:27):

And is that bread and butter for a lot of employment lawyers out there?


Andrew Stirling (00:17:30):

I wouldn't say, uh, uh, I wouldn't say that every day you've got someone calling you for that kind of, that kind of advice, but, uh, there are plenty of lawyers and accountants that have spent a lot of time over the last few years in back payment, reconciliation processes, processes. Um, so they're looking at those sort of questions, after the fact, rather than before the fact.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:18:04):

So, so potentially, and don't let me put words in your mouth if it's not right, but is it a bit more of a, um, an indirect impact on the kind of work that, that people would, that lawyers may have done by, you know, proactively managing these issues and avoiding problems down the track?


Andrew Stirling (00:18:22):

Yes. Yeah, but that's, that's the idea. I mean, the whole, the whole point of the, um, you know, solving those problems, the payroll, um, calculation and making sure your rosters and attendance systems are compliant, it's it's to avoid problems in the first place. And we, and we, you know, we do other things like we know there's onboarding processes that can take away some of the stuff that you might, um, you might also go and, uh, get advice on from time to time, or at least you might do it once and then, you know, you don't do it again. Uh, and that's sort of before you get to the Portner Press side of things, which is literally content practical content, uh, that is about employment law and health and safety law, running and running in parallel. So I'm still on the management board of, Portner Press as well, which I mean, that really is getting at the heart of, uh, answering or solving questions before you take the next step and get, get legal advice if you need it.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:19:35):

I mean, it's an interesting way of unpacking the impact of technology on, you know, the, the legal process and the legal industry. And, and I think there's an enormous amount in this preventative side. I think a lot of work that lawyers do comes from things not being well organized, and that's not, um, a critical comment. It's, it's very hard to get all of, you know, your ducks in a row when you're, you're trying to run a business and do a lot of other things. So, so problems do arise. So having a framework in which things happen, that better manages, the administration of those things can lead to better outcomes at the end. So that's sort of one area of impact. I suppose there's a direct thing like saying, taking calls, um, you know, small advice stuff. And it sounds like Portner Press is, a broadening of that again.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:20:29):

But, but a lot of, I don't know if there's an equivalent term in the legal industry, but you know, they talk about, uh, in, so FinTech, they talk about dealing with the unbanked, you know, people who don't currently use financial services. So it's less of an impact existing industry or products and services, and more just creating a new market when it's there. And I wonder with something like, uh, managing management of employees, whether a lot of the kind of stuff that people might be coming to Tanda for is stuff that they would have just, you know, they would have winged it before basically and they went through it. And, and so, again, this is more of an additive, you know, an additive service rather than, than one that, that erodes what's currently done.


Andrew Stirling (00:21:17):

Spot on. So we sort of think about customers, um, or, uh, but they have similar problems, but the, as the, as the size of the business, you know, as the business gets bigger, the problems change a little, and, for our enterprise customers, so our bigger customers, they're usually, they usually have some sort of workforce management solution, before, before Tanda. But for small business, usually the old, what they're switching from is nothing it's spreadsheets, it's bits of paper, it's, you know, the old, um, word roster or something. It's, so by adopting solutions like Tanda that they are definitely taking a step, a proactive step, in managing that compliance, yeah, without, without taking advice.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:22:24):

It's just an interesting little, representation of the broader legal industry technology interplay. I think, um, just taking a slight step to the side, and like you mentioned about, I want to come back to this don't let me forget, you mentioned, the process of converting regulation into code before, even at a personal level, I'm fascinated to hear how you do that, to the extent that you're willing to, to share it, I'll come back to that. But, but more at a generic level, um, you've transitioned from a strictly legal role into one that draws on your legal skills, but is not a legal role. Um, so tell us about an, an average, an average day, just in terms of makeup and the kinds of things that you're doing and how that differs. Um, and, and, and perhaps, if you can talk a bit about, you know, the, the skills that you've brought with you that are really useful, um, as a lawyer or legal skills that you're bringing across, and also the things that you're, that you really had to work on to sort of get up to speed in, in this, this new role.


Andrew Stirling (00:23:39):

A lot, I've had to work on a lot. Um, but let me start with the skills that were transferrable.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:23:47):

Well, can I just, sorry, I should have compounded my, my question. What does an average day look like?


Andrew Stirling (00:23:53):

Yeah. An average day, I, um, on an average day would, I'm part of our product development process. So we have, a team that, um, obviously don't code anything myself. Um, but I, I am a part of our sort of problem and solution identification process. Um, so on a typical day, I would be, uh, I would be thinking of thinking through customer problems and, looking at solutions to those. So talking to customers about that. I on a typical day would be generally, chatting to at least one or two people about, um, either an award interpretation point or a statute interpretation point. It's pretty common. I do a lot of work, with our sales team, so tenders talking to prospective clients. Um, and I do a lot of work with our implementation team. So configurations and people, double checking interpretations on, on new accounts and things like that. Probably the bulk of my time is on how can we make Tanda even better.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:25:24):

And is it more collaborative? It sounds like it's more collaborative than life as a private practice lawyer.


Andrew Stirling (00:25:30):

Yes, it is a way more collaborative because I can't do it all myself, I think. Um, and I, I guess with private practice, the model is, sorry. I don't have to guess, the model with private practice is you have a person at the top, who's like the chief, um, paper reviewer, and you've got people chugging away creating bits of paper, and then you get the bits of paper and you put some red pen on them and, um, et cetera, um, uh, that sort of got increasingly lonely.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:26:06):

It's the product development cycle, isn't it?


Andrew Stirling (00:26:10):

Yeah, I guess so. Um, uh, yeah, uh, it's can be a bit of a lonely, um, lonely process. Um, and yeah, because I can't, I can't be that I can't be the person who does the code, cause I don't know anything about it. I have to be the person who, uh, feeds my bit into the process. And that's a good thing and a bad thing.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:26:40):

Yeah, I'm taking you off track. So what does that, what does that look like? Um, your interface as I, what the, um, software community would call the domain expert, you're the legal expert, how do you interface with the technical team, the developers to, um, to make sure that the, the algorithm and rule sets that they embed in the system by way of code are matching, um, the requirements that you prescribed as the expert in that area?


Andrew Stirling (00:27:11):

Yeah, well, it's a pretty, it's a pretty difficult process. Uh, but I mean, it starts with, uh, I guess it starts with me, um, and my interpretations, uh, and a lot of it's ambiguous. So sometimes we, um, we go external, um, talk to the Fair Work Ombudsman about what they might think the interpretation should be. Um,


Alister Fitzgerald (00:27:43):

But moving past that, that like the legal questions there, so assuming you've got all of that bedded down, you've got a rule set of some description that needs to be embedded in the system. How does that work?


Andrew Stirling (00:27:56):

Yeah. Well, I mean, we already have the vast majority of the pay rules automated. So at this point it's, we're taking it as far as we can. It's ...


Alister Fitzgerald (00:28:09):

Automated in the sense that they're, they've been reduced to code...


Andrew Stirling (00:28:12):

Correct.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:28:12):

...or automated in the sense that you've got some fancy way of taking a piece of regulation, like a new piece of regulation and, and having that at least partially converted into code.


Andrew Stirling (00:28:22):

Yeah. So, uh, it's um, once you've done the interpretation piece, you can get into the UI, uh, and configure a rule that will apply that to a time sheet. Yep. Um,


Alister Fitzgerald (00:28:41):

So it's you at the backend that you do, you're doing that, are you? So they've got effectively a rule building system there with, with certain parameters that you can take and embed the logic in that way?


Andrew Stirling (00:28:53):

Uh, yeah, not me personally. I don't sort of sit there and fiddle around with the UI, but we have a team of people who, I mean I know how to do it, I can do it. It's, we have a team of people that, that do it. We've got, you know, embedded in, sort of hard-coded, entire rule sets, which we keep updated, which are, um, in combination reflective of the relevant awards. So there's that, there's that sort of interpretation piece. Let's, let's put all these things together and stick them, you know, we can configure and then there's the, okay, we've, we've taken the payroll calculator this far. Let's now do the rule that says, um, you know, in a, in a fortnight you can only work eight shifts that are 10 hours long. Like it's, it's, let's just keep iterating on the rule set that we completely automate.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:29:56):

Yep. And so for that, um, is, so at some point you're got to be giving a set of instructions and I go into this because it's been like, it's a process that I've had to develop through trial and error in dealing with software development teams and I'm constantly improving. Well, I'm certainly iterating on the process that I use, but do you, like, you're sitting there, you drawing like tree diagrams with, um, or a decision, a decision map, uh, that you're handing over to that team. Um, is, is it, is it a, like a written document, more, more text I'm doubting that, but like what, what does, what does, like, what do you hand over and then at the end, how does that, how do you test that? Who, who does the testing? How does that work?


Andrew Stirling (00:30:42):

Uh, so I come up with a document that says, let's do that rule that I just said, um, let's, let's automate that now. Um, and, uh, I sit with, uh, uh, an engineer and the engineer says, um, you know, sort of scratches the chin and says, okay, well, we can already, um, do the rule that if you work this many shifts in a fortnight that you get over time, what we'd need to do is we'd need to add in the bit that says, those shifts need to also be 10 hours long. So, um, you know, this is what it would look like in the, um, in the UI. Um, and they, they work on how it works, um, in the code and, uh, whatever else. Um, and then when it gets to QA, then I sit there and just create time sheets and, and make sure it works the way you expect it to.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:31:43):

It's mind numbing. isn't it? Do you find that testing the system and trying to be thorough with the different sort of combinations of entry and other things? Yeah, yeah,


Andrew Stirling (00:31:53):

It is. Um, but you need to be thorough and, uh, yeah, so that that's, you know, once something comes out the back end, then I'm in the QA process as well.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:32:05):

Interesting. Now, sorry, I wanted to dig into that one selfishly to understand how somebody else does something that I find takes a lot of my time in developing product. But I think, yeah, certainly for lawyers listening to this who are interested in legal tech and haven't had any exposure to the process of building a particular, you know, piece of functionality or, or product it's, it really does get down to quite simple and laborious interchange of ideas and standards and testing and other things. So that's good. Yeah. You're making me feel better about myself, which is ultimately what this is all about.


Andrew Stirling (00:32:42):

I don't think there's any shortcuts. No. Um, uh, yeah, it, it takes a lot of work.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:32:49):

So getting... before I distracted you there, so your, your day is more collaborative say than, um, a standard lawyer. What, are there things that you learned as a lawyer that you're going, gee, I never realized how, you know, how strong a skill that was and how useful that is outside of a legal context or a strict, you know, a law firm environment.


Andrew Stirling (00:33:12):

Well, I mean, aside from the sort of directly, you know, there were an, there was an amendment to the Fair Work Act that, uh, uh, you know, just went through the Senate. Um, so I'm the one that reads that and goes, this is what that means for us. Do we need to do anything? Yes, no. Um, uh, and aside from sort of the award interpretation, statutory interpretation, um, yeah, there's plenty. I mean, you, you get very well trained in identifying problems and, um, hypothesizing solutions, coming up with solutions. I mean, that, that's basically law in a nutshell, and you're just applying a set of, uh, things that you've learned and the experiences that you've had in other situations to a new set of facts. Uh, and, um, that's, that's a very useful skill for anything I think. Um, so I think that that's sort of been directly, directly transferable, you know, as well as things like, um, you know, you get, get good at writing a good memo. Um, hopefully you're relatively clear in what you're asking people and suggesting to people. Um, even if I found engineers can talk a different language and, um, that's another story, but, um...


Alister Fitzgerald (00:34:44):

That's, that's without doubt. Oh, to be fair, they would probably say that no lawyers talk a different language, but I think if you're taking that sort of the commercial sector as an average and the software development is, is a different, is a different best.


Andrew Stirling (00:34:59):

And I mean, communicate communication is a two-way street. And if someone doesn't understand what you're saying, that's as much ...


Andrew Stirling (00:35:06):

That's at least partially your fault...


Andrew Stirling (00:35:06):

It is, 100%, um, and, you know, presenting, um, you know, getting in front of people and chatting to them about what we're doing and compliance and, um, that sort of thing with all of those skills are readily transferable. And I think also when you've been, I never made it to the pinnacle of partnership, but I was pretty close. And I think when you spend that amount of time at a place that values excellence very highly, you know, what it takes in a way to replicate that somewhere else. Um, I think that's useful too.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:35:48):

That's a really good observation actually. Um, I think it's easy... it's a funny dynamic in, in law firms that it does, that the system does require and deliver a very high output of work. Despite people's view of things, you have a lot of bright people working incredibly hard. Yes, you get paid a lot of money, but, um, you know, that, that is, uh, that is certainly a factor, but it's, um, it's interesting, sorry. As I'm reflecting on the process that I've been through over the last five years, since not being in a law firm, you do take that to the next level. You do say, well, even though that's not my thing, I can see that it's good, but that's not good, good enough. That's not great. And it does have you push to, um, you know, to those higher standards. So that's, that's really interesting,


Andrew Stirling (00:36:42):

I guess that, if you, if you know how to get there, you can not short circuit it. Because I, I just think sometimes you just need time to do things. You just need experiences. But you know, what, you had to do to be successful. Like for me, it was, I read a lot, at, at Allens. So I used to take, I used to take cases like big bundles of cases on, holidays before we had kids and just read them.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:37:19):

I wouldn't say that out loud. Do you still?


Andrew Stirling (00:37:22):

No, I don't read, I don't read cases with anything like the frequency I maybe should, only the big ones. But, uh, but what I do now is I, have just spent 18 months immersing myself in books about software and business and sales and product management and development cycles, because the information's there. Uh, I guess someone's thought of these things before people, people have, um, had these experiences and, uh, and thankfully write about them. And so you just need to find those things and, um, you know, that that's the sort of the software equivalent of reading cases. And, you can sort of fast track some, some of your experience by doing that.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:38:18):

Mm, no, I, I hear you on that. I certainly spend quite a bit of time doing that. Although I must say I opt for video content more, um, than, than written materials. So never, never afraid to take a short online course to learn about different things or, um, you know, watch YouTube clips on what others would consider to be quite boring topics while I'm washing the dishes at night. You know, you fit it in, fit it in where you can. It's, it's a sad sharing of existence that you and I have just, um, published to the world, Andrew.


Andrew Stirling (00:38:53):

For me, it's audio books, because I never get a chance to sit down and read aside from Christmas holidays. So just have the headphones in when I'm doing the dishes instead of video.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:39:04):

Cases probably haven't moved to audio book status, I guess that would be, that would be interesting.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:39:11):

Okay. I'm going to, uh, change course here. Um, break up as often happens with conversations. I find interesting we tend to need to keep an eye on the time. So I want to hit, hit you with some rapid fire questions that have nothing to do with what we've been talking about, but just to sort of pick up the pace and get a different insight too. So this is just, uh, you know, um, you know, would you like a or B what's your, what's your preference? So, uh, remote work or in the office?


Andrew Stirling (00:39:40):

Uh, in the office.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:39:42):

Coffee or tea?


Andrew Stirling (00:39:44):

Coffee


Alister Fitzgerald (00:39:45):

Uh, what's uh, what's an known vice, a vice of yours others would know about?


Andrew Stirling (00:39:52):

Uh, I'm a sweet tooth,


Alister Fitzgerald (00:39:53):

Right. What's a vice that people wouldn't know about? You can pass, you get one pass.


Andrew Stirling (00:40:02):

I'll take the pass.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:40:03):

Okay. How do you unwind? Other than reading cases?


Andrew Stirling (00:40:08):

Other than reading cases, uh, usually with a G and T.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:40:12):

Right. So this is, this is the third podcast in a row. I've had a dog barking outside, but we'll push on not withstanding. A gin and tonic. Nice one. Social media platform you spend most time on?


Andrew Stirling (00:40:25):

LinkedIn,


Alister Fitzgerald (00:40:28):

Audio or video?


Andrew Stirling (00:40:31):

Audio.


Andrew Stirling (00:40:32):

And media recommendation, um, can be across any platform or service?


Andrew Stirling (00:40:41):

The Australian.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:40:42):

Right. I'm going to pause there because if I don't go, I go and strangle this dog, then we're not going to have a very good discussion. Just give me one second. Okay. Put my little headphones back in,


Andrew Stirling (00:41:06):

Get the shotgun and blanket.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:41:11):

Well, he literally, that's, that's three in a row. I, um, I have to cause it's, you know, we're recording it when, um, when your kids are getting home from school and I sort of put a warning out saying, Hey, um, um, you know, having a podcast don't, you know, just, just be a bit quiet when you get home and make sure you keep it on the dog. And of course the dog gets it out and barks at anything that moves. Okay.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:41:33):

So rapid fire question is, uh, is, is done. Interesting. Um, I like the gin and tonic angle. Um, I'm more of a champagne person myself, just because it's nothing fancy or expensive, but it's, it makes it an occasion. And I'm the only one in the house to drinks. My wife doesn't drink. She hasn't, hasn't drunk for years. So sitting by myself with nothing else to enjoy, but a drink with bubbles in it. Anyway, that's probably sharing a bit more than I should have. Um, okay.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:42:03):

This is something you and I have had a bit of a discussion about before. And I just want to put my theory to you. This is in the context of, of how software might impact the legal profession more broadly. And so I'll put a theory to you and I'm just keen to hear your response, agree or disagree, adding any comments. So the theory is that we're going to say the, emergence of legal digital platforms that are industry specific, that will grow to replace an increasing amount of the day-to-day legal process that's currently undertaken by lawyers and firms, but that the monetization of those services or those platforms will start to shift from the service being provided to, a leveraging of the information or the data captured through that service.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:43:04):

So for example, if there is a, you know, commercial contracting platform, it's, the and contracts are created in, an online environment and information from those, those contracts is, is captured either in a singular or collective way, then leveraging that information, we'll start deliver insights, improvements, and, and other areas of functionality. And people will start to pay for that as, as it sort of transitions away from actually doing the process of creating the contract. And to draw a crude example, if you look at, you know, something like a Facebook or a Google, but both of those have, are massive worldwide, arguably monopolistic platforms that leveraged data through a service it's unrelated to where they make their money, they make their money through advertising, and that can be targeted and effective because of the information people put into use the apparent functionality or service. Do you think that construct might have an impact on the legal profession? And this comes to why I find Tanda interesting, because I think that employment law is an area where potentially the, if this is a thing, and this is a trend that might start to become apparent in, in, in an industry in this industry that, you know, well, yeah.


Andrew Stirling (00:44:30):

There's sort of two bits to that. I think the first is, the idea of, new digital service providers popping up that solve problems for customers using technology that are currently being solved by lawyers. And that I'm a hundred percent on board with, that I just think that the progress in that is inevitable and, it'll be consistent, just, the chipping away at, I guess the foundation. I mean, that's sort of where we're already at in a lot of ways. I mean, when you and I started out as lawyers, people just got boxes full of documents, for discovery or boxes full of documents for due diligence and graduates just sat in rooms and read them. I mean, one of the, uh...


Alister Fitzgerald (00:45:38):

I remember it fondly. Or not so fondly,


Andrew Stirling (00:45:40):

One case, um, one case I worked on there, this was right at the turning point of moving to digitization or this sort of stuff, but this would have been maybe one of the last. I walked into, um, the Blakes office in Sydney as it was then. And it just led into a meeting room and was just confronted by a wall full of boxes. And that was discovery. And I just sat there for a week and had a dictator, a Dictaphone, and, dictated our, you know, our list for things that we were going to request copies of. And none of that would happen now, everything, you just get it on a screen. And so when that's just the, that's just the start. I mean, it'll just keep things like that will keep happening. People keep solving little problems and little problems for in particular industries or, that's, that's inevitable.


Andrew Stirling (00:46:41):

And then, so the, the second part of that is,is fascinating. And this sort of thing already exists and it exists in our industry. So some, um, some workforce management providers in Australia are funded by, for example, banks with the purpose of leveraging the, employee contacts. You know, you've basically got a captured audience of employees to market to, so that already exists. Now the critical thing though, is, I think, is that, with technology and I'm interested in your thoughts on this, cause I'm not sure we've ever taken the conversation down this path is that you have a, an explosion of new vendors and everyone's having a shot at it, and then you get a consolidation. And there's a real question for me about whether the winners in that consolidation can be funded other than by the, um, the service, service itself, because you have to solve, you have to be the best at solving the job you're hired for. So you need to be the best at calculating pay. You need to be the best at getting the right people at the right place at the right time. And if you're distracted by making your money from selling, you know, bank accounts, can you ever be the best? It's possible, I guess.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:48:34):

Well, I guess to that, I'd say, I think it depends. I think industry by industry is different and leveraging contacts for marketing is probably not as much of what I had in mind. I would think about things like, you know, if you've got like you're collecting, um, when you have a solution say with Tanda that collects information, like there's a time logging time sheet functionality as part of the Tanda product suites, so that there is taking some granular information about who works, where, and when.


Andrew Stirling (00:49:09):

Yes.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:49:10):

That of itself is, is information. That is interesting. What, what insights can you draw from that and that alone, like some, but, you know, there's that alone. I don't think that's going to be, is going to solve all the problems, but I think it's when you start to then, you look at that and say, how do we leverage improved business outcomes by optimizing the way we do our work?


Alister Fitzgerald (00:49:39):

And, and part of that is being able to have that core information about what it is that you are doing, to a level of detail that you can then start to interlink with other things that enables you to say, well, geez, we didn't realize that, you know, if we're doing this in this way, that wasn't best practice and we can make, you know, we can optimize things, um, there and, and make that more efficient. So make that the business model more viable. And so it's, it's more collecting the operational information and being able to, analyze that in a way that enables for the, that you can start to feed back into a loop of improving the way that, that, um, that business is carried out. To give you a different example. So in the space that I'm interested in, in commercial real estate and leasing in particular, um, the, the lease.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:50:39):

So if you go and you say, look, there's an office building, what's that office building worth, what, what, what is it worth? And then you go and have a look at the valuation model that determines what it's worth. It's effectively looking at all of the cash flows for that particular asset and, and, and applying some other, you know, some factors as well, but you, you know, how much money do we get out? How much money do we put in? How do we expect that money to increase over time? How likely are we to be filling that space when, you know, when someone leaves at the end of their lease? And so what you have in the lease itself, or the aggregate information of all of the leases of that particular asset, is at least the majority of all of the data points, you need to determine what the thing is worth.


Andrew Stirling (00:51:22):

Yes.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:51:23):

And so then I look at that and I think that is, and currently that's, that's how valuation works. It's quite a crude process because leases are cumbersome and, and, you know, data transfer isn't, um, isn't precise and there's a time lag and lots of other things. So there is a way if you look at it and go, well, if we got our hands on the process of creating these leases, we could, and we got, we got that at, at a critical mass, so that we could start to get insights into how the market was, was moving. You're getting indicators about market activity and inputs into a valuation process that are of the highest quality and value to an industry. So it, so I look at that and I'd say, well, I'm already say the process of leasing, leasing as a, as a legal good is, is highly commoditized.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:52:16):

Yes. And, and it, you know, there's a lot of price pressure that comes with that. And, and so is it a, is it too far fetched a notion to say that look that will be all captured in a process, you know, in a software process, at some point, There'll be winners and losers, losers and consolidations. So in five or 10 years time, you know, maybe half, or, you know, there's one or two providers in the market that do that. Um, and are they then going to charge, like, is the meter going to turn over for every lease that happens when the software facilitates 99.9% of the process that lawyers would currently, undertake, or, or is, you're going to be monetizing that platform by the information you can give back to the owners of those assets and the people taking leases in those assets about how, you know, how to optimize their business when all that information is to hand.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:53:12):

So, yeah, it's, for me, for me, it's because I know commercial real estate that is quite a logical extension. It's not as clear cut I think in other industries, and I don't know other industries as well, but I just think it's an interesting point in my head, at least to say that information from the legal process has enormous value. And there could be a world where that information is captured with an efficiency and an accuracy that enables it to be the point of leverage and the point of value that might start to overtake the legal process itself.


Andrew Stirling (00:53:43):

Yes. So, it, you, you're very, you're very right. Can you, can you feed back the information that you get from those processes and, and monetize that information? I guess in a way, so I look at it through, no, let's, let's use, let's use your example. So,are the, is the end customer in your case, the law firm that you're doing the due diligence for, is it the, the client of the law firm? You know, who ....


Alister Fitzgerald (00:54:24):

What we currently do? What we currently do is not what I just described.


Andrew Stirling (00:54:28):

Yep. Yep. Cause if you, if what you're talking about is feeding the data that you have back in to sort of create new opportunities for automation.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:54:39):

Yes.


Andrew Stirling (00:54:40):

And monetizing that then. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's, that's the sort of the obvious step, I think with compliance and, reg tech and all that, it's optimizing the information you get, and using the information you get. So, not necessarily to aggregate it and sell it separately, but so to use Tanda as an example, we definitely take the customer, customers take that information that is in the system. They add in their own information around sales and forecasting and, um, to optimize rosters and, um, you know, gain efficiencies that way. So it does loop back around and that's how we, that's how we monetize those insights.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:55:34):

I think that's, I mean, in my perhaps naive, but my, my optimistic viewpoint is that that's how that would work. It's, it's less about say Andrew, I'm taking your information from, your interaction with the system and I'm using that to sell to other people. And it's more about saying well Andrew, you're engaging with this platform for, for a particular purpose and as part of the value that we can deliver, we can not only deliver on that specific thing that, that sort of legal contractual process, for example, but we can give you all these other insights that come from you and everyone else who participates here in, you know, a consensual and anonymized basis to be able to help you do what you do better. Um, and similarly for, you know, in the example I gave in commercial leasing or commercial real estate, it's no, it's not an underhanded sneaking away of information and monetizing it for others' benefit.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:56:31):

It's saying, you know, we can effectively pool information in a way that gives us, allows us all to it, to raise, to raise our game. Um, I, I think it's interesting. I think, I think that leveraging information or data generated through legal process is an enormous area of opportunity and, and an enormous threat, I think to law firms, as, you know, if, if the business model changes such that the thing that always underpinned the, you know, the revenue of a lot of legal practice, if that starts to get eroded by these kinds of things, and you actually don't make money from that anymore. Um, that's, that's a challenge.


Andrew Stirling (00:57:14):

Well, it, yeah, I mean, I kind of think that the inevitable outcome of, these types of technologies is that the less sophisticated, the next least sophisticated thing gets automated. And that's just will be a steady process until technology does everything, except for the things that just cannot be automated. Um, which, uh, isn't necessarily that, that much. Well I, I think I probably imagine a future different to perhaps you and, and others, but there is a lot of stuff that gets done that doesn't, the computers could do better, um, if they were trained in the right way.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:58:07):

Yeah. I don't, I don't disagree with that. I, I often describe lawyers and it sounds bad to start with, but I describe lawyers as highly paid administrators and highly educated administrators. And that's not to say that they're being paid an amount more than they're worth. It's not to say that it's an easy thing to do or to do well, because that's not the case. It's a tough job, but at the end of the day, there's a lot of wrangling of information and management of things. And like, you've got to set the table before you can have the meal, if I can put it that way. There's a lot of like when we do due diligence, there's an enormous amount of work that we do to get it to the point that we know that we're looking at the right thing. Um, and so, you know, you might spend 30, 40% of your entire, um, the amount of time you're put into that exercise, making sure you are, you've got everything you need and you've removed the things that are not relevant.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:59:00):

And then you're looking at the right thing. Um, and, and that kind of preparatory work that organizational work is something that software does well. So I think there's, there's, um, a risk around that. I think there's certainly going to be new value that sits on top. Um, the question is really whether one can keep up with the other, um, and time, time will tell, time will tell I think now to that, cause we're, we're coming close to time and I'm conscious of your time here.


Alister Fitzgerald (00:59:31):

Give me some, give me some predictions, look forward, say five years and 10 years, what does the practice of employment law look like in those time horizons?


Andrew Stirling (00:59:48):

Uh, I would say more, um, probably more stuff around litigation. Um, like the rats and mice stuff, like contract creation and stuff like that. Um, not rats and mice - vanilla stuff, like that. Just think less and less of that. People pay less, be willing to pay less for it. Um, it'll be so standardized. Um, but there's still a role for, um, people on litigations and the really hard thinking stuff, um, in acquisitions and stuff like that. Um, you know, invest ... as I was on the way out, investigations have become bigger and bigger now. Um, I can't see that changing because society has kind of drifted in this direction of complaint, um, and, um, wanting resolution on complaints and everything has to be investigated. And so more and more company resources are getting dedicated to, um, you know, turning the cannons back on themselves in a way. I mean, when I started, um,...


Alister Fitzgerald (01:01:15):

It also prompts the question of compliance as well though, doesn't it? What we were talking about before, about having the information at your fingertips to make for a more efficient process. When you say that, I think of that, you know, these are, you know, as they say in startup land, these are problems that need to be solved. These are, these are challenges that, that software could come to assist with. I think so that the retrospective, the investigation is not so much about the work to figure out exactly what happened. You're able to more effectively have that presentation of facts, facts, or circumstances upon which you can then draw conclusions or develop strategies or other things like that.


Andrew Stirling (01:02:00):

Yeah. But you know, the practice of law hasn't evolved so much in, um, you know, the last five to 10 years, um, I mean, people have iPhones, so people are constantly contactable, which means they can just do law all the time and be available all the time. And so that, that trend will probably keep going, but, um, things have sort of drifted around in terms of mix of things to do, but the whole law firm model, or at least it is in the big firms, is to train people, to think and to act like you so that when you're not there, they just become the next person who thinks and acts like you. I mean, it's, um, it's some sort of asexual reproduction thing that's going on.


Alister Fitzgerald (01:02:59):

And that's a soundbite right there.


Andrew Stirling (01:03:02):

And it evolves, it evolves in a direction. And, you know, being a law graduate now is a whole lot different to being a law graduate when I was a law graduate, but, and that's, that's all a good thing. Um, and a right thing. And I think things like diversity and stuff like that, it's all headed in the right direction. And so there are evolutions like that, but, you know, even the, um, even the female partners are still trained to think the same way. They're still trained to deliver that product in a very similar way and they'll have their own finesse on that. And that's good. Um, and you know, other people will think slightly differently, but it's still the same model. So I'm going to watch it unfold now it's still...


Alister Fitzgerald (01:03:56):

It hasn't changed much, despite all the advances in technology haven't really changed the look and feel of a law firm as much as you might've thought.


Andrew Stirling (01:04:05):

No, I don't think it, I don't think it really will. I think, um, it'll take things away. It's probably what technology will do. And what do you think?


Alister Fitzgerald (01:04:13):

Oh, look, I think it, um, I think there's a progression. It's, it's the frog boiling analogy. I think. So there'll be a progression where, um, you know, the, the, the business model of the law firms still, even though, you know, the biggest firms do a lot of work that requires incredibly bright hard-working people to do very challenging things and they get paid, you know, they get paid fair value for that, but the business model still relies on this model of leverage. Yes. Um, and when the work that is that leveraged work, that where you're paying people in your team relatively less compared to the amount that they can bill, when that starts to fall away such that it becomes more and more just the work of the leading experts, so more towards the top of the triangle, I suppose you could put it that way. Um, I think then the business model is undermined and I think things then change. By all accounts, you know, law firms are living their best life at the moment. You see a lot of stories about, you know, bonuses and other things. So the big firms certainly seem to be doing well, but I think there will come a point where, like, things will start to fall off. Yeah. Um, quickly. And, and I don't, I don't think like I've shared my view in that theory I put forward before. I think there will be broader platforms, software platforms that will start to pick up legal process within industries. And they won't just be, it won't just be legal tech, it will be, um, something that solves a number of problems integrated because the legal process, certainly in the commercial context, is integrated with lots of other things. So when those things start to come to the fore and they're still in their formative stages, um, I think when those things start to come to the fore and it erodes the leverage model, then I think you start to see change, but as to how quickly that will happen. I don't know. I agree. It's not happening at the moment.


Andrew Stirling (01:06:11):

It, it, it, um, I think probably two things. One, it'll it. I agree with you. I mean, I agree with that analysis that it, technology erodes the leverage model, and it's something that law firms are grappling with. How do you train people if no one wants to pay for them to be doing the work? Um, and that's something that will sort of become more and more heightened, but I think it will affect law firms, asymmetric, asymmetrically, I think it'll affect, um, uh, sort of smaller firms and the mid tiers faster than it will affect...


Alister Fitzgerald (01:06:47):

I think so.


Andrew Stirling (01:06:48):

And, um, then if it starts to do that, the people start making different decisions about what they study. I mean, the, um, you know, one big problem with the legal industry is that too many people are lawyers and there are too many people coming through law schools in the, um, you know, people start making decisions, different decisions about joining the industry in the first place. Then, you know, maybe you have fewer people in those roles in those junior roles, there's less leverage, but you can then still charge more. Do you know what I mean? Like it, it won't necessarily be, uh, um, yeah, the demand side might be offset to some degree by the supply.


Alister Fitzgerald (01:07:37):

I think it'll be interesting to watch. Yeah. I, I don't think that the idea about how do we train lawyers. Um, I don't see that as a challenge. I just think as, as the business model evolves and the skill sets change, you will train people for the skills that they need in the senior roles. So you wouldn't train an, uh, graduate now with the kind of stuff that I did when I was at that level. Um, and similarly, I think that in five years time, you probably won't be, they won't be putting graduates through the same process that they do now they'll need to be more, um, I think they probably will have, they may start to have less ma maybe they won't, maybe they'll still have quite a broad base, but people will more quickly find their way into, into other roles. And it becomes a more accepted pathway.


Alister Fitzgerald (01:08:22):

I don't know how that will shake out, but I think that, um, I think you'll have a smaller number of people at the top because you're always going to need the smartest girl or guy in the room to be dealing with those hard questions. Um, but they have to charge more to make up for the fact that they don't have the leverage and they're not. And then I think, I think firms probably get smaller. I think they collaborate more. I mean, just as a personal anecdote we're finding after a number of years of targeting the commercial parties directly, because initially law firms, weren't interested effectively in outsourcing parts of their parts of their work that law firms are turning around now and are very interested in outsourcing work that they look at and they go, it's evolved to a point where, you know, an outfit that is set up specifically to do that thing and to do that cost-effectively and leveraging technology to the highest degree we want to go there because it doesn't make sense for us to try and do everything anymore.


Alister Fitzgerald (01:09:17):

So, um, they lose, or start to, you know, a few line items in, um, you know, revenue line items start to fall away. I think the mix changes. So whether it's a, um, falling off a cliff or a steady evolution, I'm not sure. Um, at this point it's a steady evolution if anything, but it will be interesting. That's for sure we can, we can talk more about it.


Alister Fitzgerald (01:09:41):

I think we've probably come to time, Andrew, there I have on the list that I shared with you before there are a number of things here we haven't even got to, which is disappointing, because I was keen to talk with them, but there's so many good things, um, that, that you've shared. So thank you for that. I have a final question. I ask everyone, um, on the podcast I ask you, what's your current obsession. So what's something that doesn't have to do with work or family that you find yourself spending a lot of time in, and it doesn't have to be particularly profound. You know, you might be binging on something on Netflix or might be a great song or what, what what's capturing, what, what, what's it, what are you obsessing over that you want to share with the world.


Andrew Stirling (01:10:22):

I'm on parental leave? Uh, so I'm obsessing over my twins. Um, and I am obsessing over a fellow named, uh, Jim Collins. I don't know if you've read Good to Great, Good to Great. Um, yeah, listened to Good to Great. And then I listened to Good to Great again. And then I listened to all of his other books a few times and, uh, just some great stuff in there.


Alister Fitzgerald (01:10:47):

Is that the one, a few years ago that I read Good to Great. And then, um, is that the one where they were looking at the CEO, like weren't they, they were looking at sort of individual factors of what makes a successful company and one that's stuck in my mind was whether like, um, a figurehead CEO, um, was a positive or negative thing. Like you need somebody out there a really visible figurehead for a company or not is my memory...


Andrew Stirling (01:11:17):

That's it, uh, the concept of level five leadership, I think. Um, and, uh, can you be a level five leader, um, and you know, be the guy on the front page or girl on the front page of the paper, or, you know, the business, the front business page, you know, touting how great you are and your trans business transformation skills and yada yada and their analysis was that it's not impossible to be that person, but you're just more likely to find the best type of leader, um, sort of level five leader being the person whose ambition is for the company and the progress of the company rather than personal ambition, um, in a different package to that. Um, yes, but that, that is that's, that's one of the insights. I just think it's so well researched. And I liked, uh, the fact that it was more scientific than a lot of the books, business books out there, which are mostly personal experience and reflection. Um,


Alister Fitzgerald (01:12:20):

Well it is a classic, isn't it like that's when I give a list of, you know, top 10 business books to read that regularly, regularly on it. Yeah. Interesting. Oh, you've made want to go back and have another look at that. I certainly enjoyed it when, yeah. When I read that a few years back. Andrew, this has been fun.


Andrew Stirling (01:12:38):

As I always enjoy chatting. Thanks for having me on Alister. I really enjoyed chatting with you.


Alister Fitzgerald (01:12:42):

It's uh, it's my pleasure. And no doubt, we'll continue this conversation and go a bit deeper down the rabbit hole at another point, perhaps not on the podcast, but I hope we can do that. And thanks very much.


Andrew Stirling (01:12:51):

Look forward to it.


Alister Fitzgerald (01:12:52):

That was Andrew Sterling head of product compliance at Tanda, and I am Alister Fitzgerald, the CEO of Field. We are the leading solution in the Australian market for lease portfolio due diligence. If you're buying or selling commercial real estate assets, or a law firm advising such parties or a tenant looking to better understand and leverage its lease portfolio or a transaction advisory firm regularly dealing with large quantities of leases. Let us turn your leases into action. Find out more at https://www.fieldql.com. Thanks again for listening. Catch you on the next episode.